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Poetic Politics
How could South Africa's "inequality" possibly be the fault of whites?
Wednesday, January 27, 2010
Comments: 21
Comments: 21
In 1652 the Dutch arrived in SA in a society of the browns (Khoi, San, Hottentots) and established a trading station. Later the settlement expanded and eventually in the 1770s conflicted with the Xhosa, a black tribe, fleeing South from Shaka Zulu’s slaughter of the other tribes (the Mfecane).
The whites had arrived on ships, guided by navigation instruments, built a colony with farms, dams, schools, hospitals and churches.
The blacks lived in mud huts, believed in witchcraft and cannibalism(muti), and were a patriarchal society who regarded wealth as measured by how many wives and cows a man had.
Of course it was unequal – but how was that the fault of the whites?
What happened in 1995 was SA was colonized by American White Guilt (for their wiping out their indigenous Indians) and Black myths of the slave Diaspora.
In fact the whites in SA are the only white colonizers who did NOT wipe out the locals; and they were also the ONLY whites that fought against American slavery.
5748 Eagle Basson
[ Monday, February 01, 2010 | 9:21:05 AM ]
Hi Mntungwa, nice to hear from you
You are too modest, you’ve already learned from me.
If you think that my statement is nasty then you must have learned that “this deeply entrenched disdain that borders on hatred, unashamedly abusing to poison young people” is also nasty.
Or does it depend on the race of the person making the statement?
Next I will teach you about LOGIC. If you are griping about “I was paid three times less the white man/woman” then it is logical that I earned more than you and therefore paid more tax than you which means I paid for your comfort, not you for mine.
It is a well-known historical fact which you cannot disguise by party propaganda that the white man has always carried the burden of this country financially and otherwise. We paid for your schools and busses, which you kept on burning, your homelands, your low cost housing, your child grants, you hospitals, your universities. We fought in the Anglo Boer War, World War I & World War II, the border wars to halt the communist invasion, and an internal terrorist war, for your freedom and your comfort. There was a small percentage of loyal, brave black soldiers, bless them and I love them, but the rest of the manne sat under the tree drinking beer. Some of course were busy bombing and necklacing their own countrymen.
See, now I’ve taught you more.
You are too modest, you’ve already learned from me.
If you think that my statement is nasty then you must have learned that “this deeply entrenched disdain that borders on hatred, unashamedly abusing to poison young people” is also nasty.
Or does it depend on the race of the person making the statement?
Next I will teach you about LOGIC. If you are griping about “I was paid three times less the white man/woman” then it is logical that I earned more than you and therefore paid more tax than you which means I paid for your comfort, not you for mine.
It is a well-known historical fact which you cannot disguise by party propaganda that the white man has always carried the burden of this country financially and otherwise. We paid for your schools and busses, which you kept on burning, your homelands, your low cost housing, your child grants, you hospitals, your universities. We fought in the Anglo Boer War, World War I & World War II, the border wars to halt the communist invasion, and an internal terrorist war, for your freedom and your comfort. There was a small percentage of loyal, brave black soldiers, bless them and I love them, but the rest of the manne sat under the tree drinking beer. Some of course were busy bombing and necklacing their own countrymen.
See, now I’ve taught you more.
5725 Mntungwa Mbulazi
[ Saturday, January 30, 2010 | 9:18:17 PM ]
Eagle Basson,
About my Blackness
I was born in Soweto of Zulu parents, my father came from Mnambithi (Ladysmith) and mother from Soweto. Half my mother family speak seSotho. I am fluent in both languages as well as xiTsonga (Shangaan), and varius Sotho and Nguni dialects.
About my taxes
I paid income tax, which was deducted from my salary. This despite the fact that I was paid three times less the white man/woman. I suppose this was another tax that we had to pay for your comfort. I also paid Sales Tax, and later VAT. Whilst I was at school, I sold soft goods and fruit in the trains between Naledi and Westgate, Faraday and Johannesburg stations. I paid tax on these goods as well.
About insults
What I leant about debating is that, the moment you start insulting ---"However, it’s probably our fault for not teaching enough of our indigenous people how to debate properly. " --- you have already lost the debate. I therefore do not regret learning nothing from you.
About my Blackness
I was born in Soweto of Zulu parents, my father came from Mnambithi (Ladysmith) and mother from Soweto. Half my mother family speak seSotho. I am fluent in both languages as well as xiTsonga (Shangaan), and varius Sotho and Nguni dialects.
About my taxes
I paid income tax, which was deducted from my salary. This despite the fact that I was paid three times less the white man/woman. I suppose this was another tax that we had to pay for your comfort. I also paid Sales Tax, and later VAT. Whilst I was at school, I sold soft goods and fruit in the trains between Naledi and Westgate, Faraday and Johannesburg stations. I paid tax on these goods as well.
About insults
What I leant about debating is that, the moment you start insulting ---"However, it’s probably our fault for not teaching enough of our indigenous people how to debate properly. " --- you have already lost the debate. I therefore do not regret learning nothing from you.
5714 Eagle Basson
[ Saturday, January 30, 2010 | 10:34:19 AM ]
@ Lyndall
Which cult are you talking about? Liberalism is a cult. The most widespread, bigoted and damaging of them all.
@ Bernie
I firmly support the policy of separate development i.e. “Apartheid”. Always have and voted NO in the 1992 memorandum.
What would you have done to protect the rights of your voters and taxpayers to continuing with a safe, prosperous, successful governance in the face of a communist backed, ignorant, uneducated, politically immature population which out numbered yours 10 to 1 and whose future actions given "democracy" and "communism" is clearly written in hundreds of years of history in the rest of Africa.
The actions which the rest of the world condemned were done in the face of an extensive terrorist war against a legitimate government backed by the Soviets, Cubans, Chinese, Americans, British, just to name a few. The actions today of the Americans in their fight against terrorism have been far worse but nothing is said. The Nats never bombed black people in the townships or homelands and never murdered them in concentration camps as the Brits did with our women and children in the AngloBoer war.
Will the USA give IRAQ back to the Hussein family when all this is over? Yet we are made to give our country away to the
descendants of Chaka Zulu, a worse tyrant than Hussein.
Which cult are you talking about? Liberalism is a cult. The most widespread, bigoted and damaging of them all.
@ Bernie
I firmly support the policy of separate development i.e. “Apartheid”. Always have and voted NO in the 1992 memorandum.
What would you have done to protect the rights of your voters and taxpayers to continuing with a safe, prosperous, successful governance in the face of a communist backed, ignorant, uneducated, politically immature population which out numbered yours 10 to 1 and whose future actions given "democracy" and "communism" is clearly written in hundreds of years of history in the rest of Africa.
The actions which the rest of the world condemned were done in the face of an extensive terrorist war against a legitimate government backed by the Soviets, Cubans, Chinese, Americans, British, just to name a few. The actions today of the Americans in their fight against terrorism have been far worse but nothing is said. The Nats never bombed black people in the townships or homelands and never murdered them in concentration camps as the Brits did with our women and children in the AngloBoer war.
Will the USA give IRAQ back to the Hussein family when all this is over? Yet we are made to give our country away to the
descendants of Chaka Zulu, a worse tyrant than Hussein.
5707 Lyndall Beddy
[ Saturday, January 30, 2010 | 2:36:33 AM ]
Mntungwa
About half the whites were against apartheid originally, but then the ANC went communist (which they lied about to the west), and the whites thought communism (which was enforced atheism) was worse.
But communism can be defeated with logic.
You can't defeat a cult with logic, which is what is making me ill.
About half the whites were against apartheid originally, but then the ANC went communist (which they lied about to the west), and the whites thought communism (which was enforced atheism) was worse.
But communism can be defeated with logic.
You can't defeat a cult with logic, which is what is making me ill.
5706 Lyndall Beddy
[ Saturday, January 30, 2010 | 2:36:09 AM ]
Mntungwa
About half the whites were against apartheid originally, but then the ANC went communist (which they lied about to the west), and the whites thought communism (which was enforced atheism) was worse.
But communism can be defeated with logic.
You can't defeat a cult with logic, which is what is making me ill.
About half the whites were against apartheid originally, but then the ANC went communist (which they lied about to the west), and the whites thought communism (which was enforced atheism) was worse.
But communism can be defeated with logic.
You can't defeat a cult with logic, which is what is making me ill.
5672 Eagle Basson
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 10:16:53 PM ]
@ Mntungwa Mabulazi
Under the Nationalist government you paid taxes my man?
Pray tell which years and how much. If my memory serves me right growing up during the “apartheid “ years, black people by large, were not required to pay taxes in South Africa due to the fact that they did not have the vote and were not allowed to own businesses. Unless, of course, you are not black and only using the darkie handle to confuse us.
Maybe my memory is faulty but our main gripe as whites were that it was a tiny minority of white taxpayers which carried the whole country with its massive black population, very much like today.
Please do me a favour and forget the insults. A good debate is comprised of well reasoned, factual arguments not a collection of slanderous racist statements. However, it’s probably our fault for not teaching enough of our indigenous people how to debate properly.
Under the Nationalist government you paid taxes my man?
Pray tell which years and how much. If my memory serves me right growing up during the “apartheid “ years, black people by large, were not required to pay taxes in South Africa due to the fact that they did not have the vote and were not allowed to own businesses. Unless, of course, you are not black and only using the darkie handle to confuse us.
Maybe my memory is faulty but our main gripe as whites were that it was a tiny minority of white taxpayers which carried the whole country with its massive black population, very much like today.
Please do me a favour and forget the insults. A good debate is comprised of well reasoned, factual arguments not a collection of slanderous racist statements. However, it’s probably our fault for not teaching enough of our indigenous people how to debate properly.
5667 Lyndall Beddy
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 3:57:32 PM ]
Bernie
I am logging out for a while.I have not been able to eat since the Paul Verryn story and I need to space out for a while, so I can eat.
I am logging out for a while.I have not been able to eat since the Paul Verryn story and I need to space out for a while, so I can eat.
5666 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 3:42:08 PM ]
Lyndall,
As you know, our editor supports BEE. He said at the last election that it was one of the main reasons he was supporting the ANC. Difficult to believe, I know.
As you know, our editor supports BEE. He said at the last election that it was one of the main reasons he was supporting the ANC. Difficult to believe, I know.
5665 Lyndall Beddy
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 3:37:27 PM ]
Bernie
I do not and never did support apartheid.
But I don't support BEE, Kwanza, and "entitlement" either.
Zimbabwe DID practice what I supported - a qualified franchise (the same for all races)
What good did it do them?
I do not and never did support apartheid.
But I don't support BEE, Kwanza, and "entitlement" either.
Zimbabwe DID practice what I supported - a qualified franchise (the same for all races)
What good did it do them?
5664 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 3:14:12 PM ]
Lyndall,
Straight answer to a straight question... "Are you supporting apartheid?"
Straight answer to a straight question... "Are you supporting apartheid?"
5663 Lyndall Beddy
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 2:52:03 PM ]
Bernie
I have already answered that question. But it was not just "to keep blacks subservient" it was also to kepp an illiterate uneducated tribal population running the country.
Which is exactly why China (with 2/3 of its population uneducated and illiterate) will not allow democracy.
I have already answered that question. But it was not just "to keep blacks subservient" it was also to kepp an illiterate uneducated tribal population running the country.
Which is exactly why China (with 2/3 of its population uneducated and illiterate) will not allow democracy.
5660 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 12:54:06 PM ]
Lyndall,
I think that you would have to admit that "apartheid" was a way of preventing a univeral franchise in SA. The whites did not want to hand over political power to the blacks. So they had to keep them subservient and "unequal".
Now the problem for your reputation, as a blogger and as a member of the human race, is that you now appear to be supporting apartheid.
So Ms Beddy, are you supporting apartheid?
I think that you would have to admit that "apartheid" was a way of preventing a univeral franchise in SA. The whites did not want to hand over political power to the blacks. So they had to keep them subservient and "unequal".
Now the problem for your reputation, as a blogger and as a member of the human race, is that you now appear to be supporting apartheid.
So Ms Beddy, are you supporting apartheid?
5659 Lyndall Beddy
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 12:17:46 PM ]
Bernie and Eagle
This so called ANC is not the ANC my family supported. Sol Plaatjies and John Dube would spit on them.
The main complaint is they were "working class". Would it have been better to have no work?
Which is where they have got to.
This so called ANC is not the ANC my family supported. Sol Plaatjies and John Dube would spit on them.
The main complaint is they were "working class". Would it have been better to have no work?
Which is where they have got to.
5662 Eagle Basson
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 12:09:30 PM ]
@ Bernie
Don't put her on the spot. She chrysalising. A wiser butterfly will emerge.
Coming back to you previous comments:
You still haven't answered my question concerning " Apartheid".
Due to the hundreds of racist laws such as AA and BEE inequality has shifted. The white minority is now less equal than others and punished every days for the perceived “ crimes” of earlier generations going all the way back to the periods of slave trade and colonialism around the 16 th century .
Some of our indigenous people are extremely happy. Between the big 4 elitists they had over the past 5 years received BEE contracts exceeding R 50 billion whilst millions of their brothers grovel in poverty however still churning out babies by the busloads to make the situation even worse.
Our president between his many court cases for rape and fraud, his luxury mansions, multiple wives and numerous children, taking a shower may stop aids but it doesn’t stop pregnancy, has recently blown a cool R 160 million or more, not to mention the R 50 million or so per year just to keep it all going. This money would have fed millions of the poor. Yet they still vote for him.
Etc etc etc.
See why we couldn’t give them the vote?
Don't put her on the spot. She chrysalising. A wiser butterfly will emerge.
Coming back to you previous comments:
You still haven't answered my question concerning " Apartheid".
Due to the hundreds of racist laws such as AA and BEE inequality has shifted. The white minority is now less equal than others and punished every days for the perceived “ crimes” of earlier generations going all the way back to the periods of slave trade and colonialism around the 16 th century .
Some of our indigenous people are extremely happy. Between the big 4 elitists they had over the past 5 years received BEE contracts exceeding R 50 billion whilst millions of their brothers grovel in poverty however still churning out babies by the busloads to make the situation even worse.
Our president between his many court cases for rape and fraud, his luxury mansions, multiple wives and numerous children, taking a shower may stop aids but it doesn’t stop pregnancy, has recently blown a cool R 160 million or more, not to mention the R 50 million or so per year just to keep it all going. This money would have fed millions of the poor. Yet they still vote for him.
Etc etc etc.
See why we couldn’t give them the vote?
5656 Mntungwa Mbulazi
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 10:58:01 AM ]
Beddy,
Seems to me you have this deeply entrenched disdain for the indegenious people of Africa, South African especially, that borders on hatred. You also righly enjoy the rightto your freedom of speech, which you are unashamedly abusing. You are abusing it to poison the minds of young people, who might take it as a gospel and do stupid things - thereby ruining the lives of their victims and their families. Mandela, on behalf of the majority of this country, forgave the Nats, including those who kept them in power, for Apartheid and its attrocities. It is in that spirit, that i will forgive you - for my own sanity, for the crazy things you write about my people.
Apartheid was declared a crime against Humanity. Apartheid cost this country greatly in terms of social & structural development, education, etc. I lived under the system. It was painful for me to pay my taxes, but I did. I knew these taxes would be used in continuing the subjucation of my people, killing and maiming of objectors, imprisoning of Nelson Mandela and others, etc. I paid my taxes because I had a hope that one day, one day, good will prevail over evil. I never imagined it will happen in my lifetime, but I knew that my children or grandchildren will live in a society free of descrimination. Seeing this happen today, in my lifetime, makes each day a joy to embrace. The struggle was worthwhile! You are also free, Beddy. You don't have to thank me for your freedom, just free yourself from the guilt and self hate and join the rainbow nation. This is bigger than me and you!
Seems to me you have this deeply entrenched disdain for the indegenious people of Africa, South African especially, that borders on hatred. You also righly enjoy the rightto your freedom of speech, which you are unashamedly abusing. You are abusing it to poison the minds of young people, who might take it as a gospel and do stupid things - thereby ruining the lives of their victims and their families. Mandela, on behalf of the majority of this country, forgave the Nats, including those who kept them in power, for Apartheid and its attrocities. It is in that spirit, that i will forgive you - for my own sanity, for the crazy things you write about my people.
Apartheid was declared a crime against Humanity. Apartheid cost this country greatly in terms of social & structural development, education, etc. I lived under the system. It was painful for me to pay my taxes, but I did. I knew these taxes would be used in continuing the subjucation of my people, killing and maiming of objectors, imprisoning of Nelson Mandela and others, etc. I paid my taxes because I had a hope that one day, one day, good will prevail over evil. I never imagined it will happen in my lifetime, but I knew that my children or grandchildren will live in a society free of descrimination. Seeing this happen today, in my lifetime, makes each day a joy to embrace. The struggle was worthwhile! You are also free, Beddy. You don't have to thank me for your freedom, just free yourself from the guilt and self hate and join the rainbow nation. This is bigger than me and you!
5641 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 9:14:43 AM ]
Eagle and Lyndall,
Now that apartheid has been removed, of course, there is more equality between blacks and whites. Now whether this "equality" has led SA to the promised land is another distinct question.
I would of course also argue that since the end of apartheid, the condition of some blacks has not improved. Universal sufferage has not improved things for a substantial % if them. But that is the fault of The ANC. It is NOT the fault of the removal of apartheid.
Now that apartheid has been removed, of course, there is more equality between blacks and whites. Now whether this "equality" has led SA to the promised land is another distinct question.
I would of course also argue that since the end of apartheid, the condition of some blacks has not improved. Universal sufferage has not improved things for a substantial % if them. But that is the fault of The ANC. It is NOT the fault of the removal of apartheid.
5640 Lyndall Beddy
[ Thursday, January 28, 2010 | 7:58:29 AM ]
Bernie
Apartheid (apart-ness) was the Nats way of dealing with an uneducated population with a different culture. My whole family was against it (as were half the whites in the beginning).I did not see my mother for the first 5 years of my life but was looked after by a maid and a Great Dane, while she was campaigning to try and win back the vote for the next election (after 1948).
But I think they wasted their time. What they wanted was a qualified franchise (a basic education before getting the vote i.e. the old Cape franchise which was the same for all colour skins - if male).
But that is exactly what they did have in Zimbabwe - blacks always did have the vote, there was no apartheid, the same education system and no forced removals.
How much good has that done Zimbabwe?
You are fighting Kwanza - a slave mythology and cult where whites, not Arabs, were the slavers.
Apartheid (apart-ness) was the Nats way of dealing with an uneducated population with a different culture. My whole family was against it (as were half the whites in the beginning).I did not see my mother for the first 5 years of my life but was looked after by a maid and a Great Dane, while she was campaigning to try and win back the vote for the next election (after 1948).
But I think they wasted their time. What they wanted was a qualified franchise (a basic education before getting the vote i.e. the old Cape franchise which was the same for all colour skins - if male).
But that is exactly what they did have in Zimbabwe - blacks always did have the vote, there was no apartheid, the same education system and no forced removals.
How much good has that done Zimbabwe?
You are fighting Kwanza - a slave mythology and cult where whites, not Arabs, were the slavers.
5638 Bernie Madoff
[ Wednesday, January 27, 2010 | 5:48:04 PM ]
Lyndall,
Are you suggesting that "apartheid" (instituted by Whites) did not cause "inequality". If you are, then I am afraid to say that you are totally meshuggah.
Are you suggesting that "apartheid" (instituted by Whites) did not cause "inequality". If you are, then I am afraid to say that you are totally meshuggah.
5639 Eagle Basson
[ Wednesday, January 27, 2010 | 5:10:44 PM ]
@ Bernie,
Please expand that statement.
How did "Apartheid" cause inequality, taking into account that the settlers found here the oldest race on earth from the cradle of humankind, 300 odd years ago, so "unequal" that a few developed persons from another race could enslave them and colonize them at will, and taking into account that in SA you are talking about a majority of 50 million blacks to 4 million whites of which only a handful were in a position to influence a body of people.
Is it not the responsibility of a race to uplift themselves, the Jews did so after the holocaust and the Afrikaner did so after the AngloBoer war. Is it not this selfsame victim mentality and culture of blame placing and entitlement that has played a major part in a race still lagging behind others in terms of development more than 2 million years later?
Please expand that statement.
How did "Apartheid" cause inequality, taking into account that the settlers found here the oldest race on earth from the cradle of humankind, 300 odd years ago, so "unequal" that a few developed persons from another race could enslave them and colonize them at will, and taking into account that in SA you are talking about a majority of 50 million blacks to 4 million whites of which only a handful were in a position to influence a body of people.
Is it not the responsibility of a race to uplift themselves, the Jews did so after the holocaust and the Afrikaner did so after the AngloBoer war. Is it not this selfsame victim mentality and culture of blame placing and entitlement that has played a major part in a race still lagging behind others in terms of development more than 2 million years later?
5636 Mntungwa Mbulazi
[ Wednesday, January 27, 2010 | 4:54:58 PM ]
I sincerely hope you are not giving your 2 children this garbage, please don't let your children read this hateful nonsense. Please take your Bantu Education text books, wrap them with the Old flag (the one you are still keeping) , and throw this into the dustbin of history, and we will welcome you into the New South Africa as the long lost sister.
5635 Eagle Basson
[ Wednesday, January 27, 2010 | 12:16:28 PM ]
What a turnaround for a libby. I know from experience that comments like these, no matter how undeniably true, would be deleted on the ANC mouthpiece; Though Leader.
"OK, now what can I do about my stand-offish attitude". LOL, just joking.
OK, that doesn’t mean that you are now a right-winger, although I am really starting to admire you and Helen Ziller, even thinking of joining DA now that she’s recanting her Black Sash liberal stance. At least the women is trying to right what she buggered up in the past, although she is a bit of Lone Ranger, the others, Nadine Gordimer, Andre Brink, etc. have all taken of overseas to escape the results of their handiwork. Some have even pegged to get away.
Here’s another one. If "Apartheid" has been in existence since around 1912 and the Nationalist government only came into power in 1948 who was really responsible for Apartheid? And don’t give me that gumph about the Nats propagating it.
Keep up the good work.
"OK, now what can I do about my stand-offish attitude". LOL, just joking.
OK, that doesn’t mean that you are now a right-winger, although I am really starting to admire you and Helen Ziller, even thinking of joining DA now that she’s recanting her Black Sash liberal stance. At least the women is trying to right what she buggered up in the past, although she is a bit of Lone Ranger, the others, Nadine Gordimer, Andre Brink, etc. have all taken of overseas to escape the results of their handiwork. Some have even pegged to get away.
Here’s another one. If "Apartheid" has been in existence since around 1912 and the Nationalist government only came into power in 1948 who was really responsible for Apartheid? And don’t give me that gumph about the Nats propagating it.
Keep up the good work.
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