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Whose land is it anyway? (The root of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict)
Wednesday, December 02, 2009
Comments: 21
Comments: 21
There was no country called Israel before 1948.
What was it called?
Who are the rightful owners?
HISTORICAL FACTS
1918-1939:
The Jews organise organise their own social and political institutions, which exercise much control over their own population.
Hebrew language is fostered and the Hebrew University is founded in Jerusalem.
1922: The League of Nations adopt the Balfour Declaration, and leaves Britain in charge of Palestine, and in assisting the Jews "reconstituting their national home in that country". Jews represent 11% of the population in Palestine with their 85 000, compared to the 670 000 Palestinians.
1930s:
Large influx of Jews frightened by the persecution in Germany. New towns and villages were created, and hundreds of kibbutzes (informal settlements) were founded.
1931: 175 000 Jews and 860 000 Arabs live in Palestine (17%).
1936: Arab revolt against constant Jewish immigration but there was no suppression by the British Forces until 1939.
385 000 Jews and 980 000 Arabs live in Palestine (28%) by now.
1937: Great Britain suggests that Palestine should be divided into a Jewish and an Arab state.
1939: The British impose a stop on the Jewish immigration. At this time, 450 000 Jews and 1.06 million Arabs live in Palestine (30%).
1945: With the ending of World War II, and the horrors of holocaust were laid open, Zionist demands on self-government increased.
From now on, illegal immigration to Palestine was organised.
1947: UN takes control over Palestine.
- November 29, a UN plan for dividing Palestine into 2 countries is presented, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem as international zone, is presented. This plan was immediately met by violent protest from the Arabs.
590 000 Jews and 1.32 million Arabs live in Palestine (31%).
1948: May 14, the new Jewish state, State of Israel, is proclaimed by the Jewish Provisional State Council. Chaim Weizmann becomes the first president, and the Zionist leader David Ben Gurion the new Prime Minister. The secret Jewish army, Haganah, is declared as the new army of Israel.
May 15 (the following day), Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq join the Arab guerillas in fight against the Jews.
1948-1951:
Around 700 000 Jews immigrate to Israel.
1949: February 24, Peace in the Middle East. Egypt declares that the agreement on cease fire is not an acceptance of the State of Israel. The Israeli territory has increased from 15 500 square/km that the UN Resolution of 1947 gave them, 20 700 square/km. Gaza strip becomes Egyptian and West Bank Jordanian.
There had been 800 000 Arabs living in the area that has now become Israel, and only 170 000 of them had been able to stay. The remaining 630 000 Arabs moved to refugee camps in neighbouring countries.
1950: Due to heavy immigration, the Israeli economy faces serious difficulties. Aid is provided by Jewish organisations around the world and the US goverment.
1956: Israel attacks Egypt, and is joined by British and French troops. Israel is much motivated by the Egyptian blockade of ships calling at Israeli port of Eilat. The British and the French are taking revenge after Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal. The 3 countries had swift victories, but the UN, supported by both USA and Soviet Union, intervened after few days. Towards the end of the year, the 3 countries had left Sinai, but Israel still held forces in Gaza.
1957: Israel leaves Gaza after USA had promised help to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open for ships calling of Israel.
1963: Ben Gurion resigns as Prime Minister and is succeeded by Levi Eshkol.
1967: June 5, political and security tensions, with increase of Arab troops stationed along the Israeli borders, provokes Israel to a surprise attack on Syria, Jordan and Egypt.
June 10, seizure of battles on the Syrian front, the last battle ground of the war that was called "Six-Day War".
Israel has occupied a large strip of of the Syrian Golan Heights, along all the former border line, East Jerusalem and West Bank, Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip, and the Egyptian territory of Sinai.
About 1.5 million Arabs are now under Israeli administration.
1969: Golda Meir becomes the new Prime Minister of Israel.
1972: 11 Israeli athletes are killed by Palestinian guerilla in the Summer Olympics in Munich, Germany.
1973: October 6, Yom Kippur War, where Egypt and Syria attack Israel and re-capture territory occupied in 1967.
Arab power had clearly increased since the last war, but after 3 weeks of fighting Israel restores control.
1974: Yitzhak Rabin becomes the new Prime Minister of Israel.
1977: Menachim Begin succeeds Yitzhak Rabin.
1980: Knesset declares Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel.
1982: April, Israel hands Sinai back to Egypt.
1986: Yitzhak Shamir becomes the new Prime Minister.
1987- 10 December 1987, the Palestinian Intifada starts, where Israel first starts brutal oppression, only to realize that this adds momentum to the Palestinian struggle.
The infitada would come to awaken liberal groups in Israel and would be prelude to the rudimentary peace initiates that came in the 1990’s.
1989 – 2006
Heavy immigration of Soviet Jews starts. Talks between Israel and Arab countries never materialized. Peace Treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed in Washington, United States of America.
In 1995 November 4, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated by the right-wing extremist Yigal Amir. November 22, Shimon Perez takes over.
In 1996 May 29, Benjamin Netanyahu becomes the Prime Minister.
Up until this day, the Palestinians have not reclaimed their land back.
Suicide attacks are still going on, back and forth.
IT IS NOT OVER YET.
CONCLUSION
Israel will always live with a concern for safety until they resolve the Palestinian land issue.
Apartheid in Israel today is worse than in the old South Africa. So if you support Israel you support apartheid.
Understand the difference between an Israeli and an Israelite.
http://rashid-kay.blogspot.com
What was it called?
Who are the rightful owners?
HISTORICAL FACTS
1918-1939:
The Jews organise organise their own social and political institutions, which exercise much control over their own population.
Hebrew language is fostered and the Hebrew University is founded in Jerusalem.
1922: The League of Nations adopt the Balfour Declaration, and leaves Britain in charge of Palestine, and in assisting the Jews "reconstituting their national home in that country". Jews represent 11% of the population in Palestine with their 85 000, compared to the 670 000 Palestinians.
1930s:
Large influx of Jews frightened by the persecution in Germany. New towns and villages were created, and hundreds of kibbutzes (informal settlements) were founded.
1931: 175 000 Jews and 860 000 Arabs live in Palestine (17%).
1936: Arab revolt against constant Jewish immigration but there was no suppression by the British Forces until 1939.
385 000 Jews and 980 000 Arabs live in Palestine (28%) by now.
1937: Great Britain suggests that Palestine should be divided into a Jewish and an Arab state.
1939: The British impose a stop on the Jewish immigration. At this time, 450 000 Jews and 1.06 million Arabs live in Palestine (30%).
1945: With the ending of World War II, and the horrors of holocaust were laid open, Zionist demands on self-government increased.
From now on, illegal immigration to Palestine was organised.
1947: UN takes control over Palestine.
- November 29, a UN plan for dividing Palestine into 2 countries is presented, one Jewish and one Arab, with Jerusalem as international zone, is presented. This plan was immediately met by violent protest from the Arabs.
590 000 Jews and 1.32 million Arabs live in Palestine (31%).
1948: May 14, the new Jewish state, State of Israel, is proclaimed by the Jewish Provisional State Council. Chaim Weizmann becomes the first president, and the Zionist leader David Ben Gurion the new Prime Minister. The secret Jewish army, Haganah, is declared as the new army of Israel.
May 15 (the following day), Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq join the Arab guerillas in fight against the Jews.
1948-1951:
Around 700 000 Jews immigrate to Israel.
1949: February 24, Peace in the Middle East. Egypt declares that the agreement on cease fire is not an acceptance of the State of Israel. The Israeli territory has increased from 15 500 square/km that the UN Resolution of 1947 gave them, 20 700 square/km. Gaza strip becomes Egyptian and West Bank Jordanian.
There had been 800 000 Arabs living in the area that has now become Israel, and only 170 000 of them had been able to stay. The remaining 630 000 Arabs moved to refugee camps in neighbouring countries.
1950: Due to heavy immigration, the Israeli economy faces serious difficulties. Aid is provided by Jewish organisations around the world and the US goverment.
1956: Israel attacks Egypt, and is joined by British and French troops. Israel is much motivated by the Egyptian blockade of ships calling at Israeli port of Eilat. The British and the French are taking revenge after Egyptian president Gamal Abdel Nasser nationalised the Suez Canal. The 3 countries had swift victories, but the UN, supported by both USA and Soviet Union, intervened after few days. Towards the end of the year, the 3 countries had left Sinai, but Israel still held forces in Gaza.
1957: Israel leaves Gaza after USA had promised help to keep the Gulf of Aqaba open for ships calling of Israel.
1963: Ben Gurion resigns as Prime Minister and is succeeded by Levi Eshkol.
1967: June 5, political and security tensions, with increase of Arab troops stationed along the Israeli borders, provokes Israel to a surprise attack on Syria, Jordan and Egypt.
June 10, seizure of battles on the Syrian front, the last battle ground of the war that was called "Six-Day War".
Israel has occupied a large strip of of the Syrian Golan Heights, along all the former border line, East Jerusalem and West Bank, Egyptian-occupied Gaza Strip, and the Egyptian territory of Sinai.
About 1.5 million Arabs are now under Israeli administration.
1969: Golda Meir becomes the new Prime Minister of Israel.
1972: 11 Israeli athletes are killed by Palestinian guerilla in the Summer Olympics in Munich, Germany.
1973: October 6, Yom Kippur War, where Egypt and Syria attack Israel and re-capture territory occupied in 1967.
Arab power had clearly increased since the last war, but after 3 weeks of fighting Israel restores control.
1974: Yitzhak Rabin becomes the new Prime Minister of Israel.
1977: Menachim Begin succeeds Yitzhak Rabin.
1980: Knesset declares Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel.
1982: April, Israel hands Sinai back to Egypt.
1986: Yitzhak Shamir becomes the new Prime Minister.
1987- 10 December 1987, the Palestinian Intifada starts, where Israel first starts brutal oppression, only to realize that this adds momentum to the Palestinian struggle.
The infitada would come to awaken liberal groups in Israel and would be prelude to the rudimentary peace initiates that came in the 1990’s.
1989 – 2006
Heavy immigration of Soviet Jews starts. Talks between Israel and Arab countries never materialized. Peace Treaty between Israel and Palestine is signed in Washington, United States of America.
In 1995 November 4, Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin is assassinated by the right-wing extremist Yigal Amir. November 22, Shimon Perez takes over.
In 1996 May 29, Benjamin Netanyahu becomes the Prime Minister.
Up until this day, the Palestinians have not reclaimed their land back.
Suicide attacks are still going on, back and forth.
IT IS NOT OVER YET.
CONCLUSION
Israel will always live with a concern for safety until they resolve the Palestinian land issue.
Apartheid in Israel today is worse than in the old South Africa. So if you support Israel you support apartheid.
Understand the difference between an Israeli and an Israelite.
http://rashid-kay.blogspot.com
6620 Kenneth McVay OBC
[ Thursday, April 22, 2010 | 11:14:59 PM ]
Once again Mr. Kay has plagarised material from someone else's website. This time, it's i-cias.com/e.o/israel.history.htm.
Give it a REST, Mr. Kay. You're a racist, a liar and a thief, and it's time you stopped offering someone else's work as your own.
Shame!
Give it a REST, Mr. Kay. You're a racist, a liar and a thief, and it's time you stopped offering someone else's work as your own.
Shame!
6502 Stewart Wood
[ Thursday, April 08, 2010 | 5:47:16 PM ]
Aha! - I see your logic - 'A table has four legs - a cat has four legs - therefore a cat is a table'
Do Newstime's contributors get paid money for such drivel? - if so I want a job please Mr. Trapido. I could trot out garbage by the ton as well as anyone!
Do Newstime's contributors get paid money for such drivel? - if so I want a job please Mr. Trapido. I could trot out garbage by the ton as well as anyone!
6410 Rashid Kay
[ Saturday, March 20, 2010 | 6:25:04 PM ]
@ just one
I only stated accurate historical facts.
You can justify the evil all you want.
But the fact remains.......
I only stated accurate historical facts.
You can justify the evil all you want.
But the fact remains.......
5316 just One
[ Sunday, December 13, 2009 | 6:09:41 PM ]
Facts for Rashid 4
Israel also had peace with Jordan and an on-off peace with the Lebanon. Arab militants continued calling for Israel’s destruction (even during apartheid, no side called for the *destruction* of the other) and created the fiction of an Arab Palestinian nation (where were its boundaries or capital, ever?).
The Arab rulers, seriously threatened by the progressive democracy in their midst, manipulated the refugees and masses, keeping them in worse conditions than even during apartheid, including the human rights obscenity of suicide bombers and using civilian as shields and propaganda tokens. This was accompanied by an anti-semitic propaganda barrage – worse than anything ever on SABC - on Arab TV and radio stations. The continuing war crimes of rocket, bomb, gun and knife attacks on unarmed civilians, in defiance of internal norms, created in some Israelis a bunker psychosis as lead to protective measures, such as the infamous security fence.
The fact is Arab states, like Egypt and Jordan seeking peace (shalom/salaam) with Israel, find a willing partner, whereas the morally asymmetric measures first used against Israel (hijackings, suicide bombers, booby traps, propaganda) are now routine against fellow Arabs and other victims. The “concern for safety” from Iraq to India cannot be blamed on the so-called Palestinian land issue. While there is indeed an “apartheid in Israel [that is] worse than in the old South Africa” it comes from the Islamo-fascists, which fact all the denigration and blaming of Israel won’t change.
Hiding behind lies also won't help the Palestinians.
Israel also had peace with Jordan and an on-off peace with the Lebanon. Arab militants continued calling for Israel’s destruction (even during apartheid, no side called for the *destruction* of the other) and created the fiction of an Arab Palestinian nation (where were its boundaries or capital, ever?).
The Arab rulers, seriously threatened by the progressive democracy in their midst, manipulated the refugees and masses, keeping them in worse conditions than even during apartheid, including the human rights obscenity of suicide bombers and using civilian as shields and propaganda tokens. This was accompanied by an anti-semitic propaganda barrage – worse than anything ever on SABC - on Arab TV and radio stations. The continuing war crimes of rocket, bomb, gun and knife attacks on unarmed civilians, in defiance of internal norms, created in some Israelis a bunker psychosis as lead to protective measures, such as the infamous security fence.
The fact is Arab states, like Egypt and Jordan seeking peace (shalom/salaam) with Israel, find a willing partner, whereas the morally asymmetric measures first used against Israel (hijackings, suicide bombers, booby traps, propaganda) are now routine against fellow Arabs and other victims. The “concern for safety” from Iraq to India cannot be blamed on the so-called Palestinian land issue. While there is indeed an “apartheid in Israel [that is] worse than in the old South Africa” it comes from the Islamo-fascists, which fact all the denigration and blaming of Israel won’t change.
Hiding behind lies also won't help the Palestinians.
5315 just One
[ Sunday, December 13, 2009 | 6:08:30 PM ]
Facts for Rashid 3
Modern zionism (1897) followed France’s infamous Dreyfuss affair. Its members bought land from the Ottomans or Arabs for settlements. Many Arabs entered the country attracted by the wealth being created.
Grand Mufti Muhammad Amin al-Husseini fell under Hitler’s influence adapting his anti-semitism and pseudo-Aryan nationalism. Zionist calls for Arab co-operation in developing the land were seen as a threat by Arab rulers already under pressure to liberalise. With al-Husseini’s imams they worked the “fedayeen” creating a “threat” by demonising Jews and the West. The 1947 United Nations resolution dividing the land into Israel and Jordan, accepted by the Jews, was at al-Husseini’s instigation rejected by the Arab League, which declared war to get rid of the Jews. The Arabs who stayed became citizens and, until the fall of Saddam, the only Arabs with a vote in free and fair democratic elections.
Coups against hereditary Arab rulers did not improve life for the masses: rulers like Gaddafi and Nasser were just as corrupt, keeping the masses in superstitious ignorance and blaming their woes on Israel and the West.
Egyptian President Anwar Sadat [whom Rashid’s “history” ignores], tried uplifting his people, drafting university students into the army which, in 1974, achieved an Arab military victory over Israel that satisfied Arab honour and allowed Sadat to make peace with Israel, which returned conquered Sinai territory. The two countries have maintained peace ever since. This departure from the al-Husseini discourse lead to Sadat’s assassination.
Modern zionism (1897) followed France’s infamous Dreyfuss affair. Its members bought land from the Ottomans or Arabs for settlements. Many Arabs entered the country attracted by the wealth being created.
Grand Mufti Muhammad Amin al-Husseini fell under Hitler’s influence adapting his anti-semitism and pseudo-Aryan nationalism. Zionist calls for Arab co-operation in developing the land were seen as a threat by Arab rulers already under pressure to liberalise. With al-Husseini’s imams they worked the “fedayeen” creating a “threat” by demonising Jews and the West. The 1947 United Nations resolution dividing the land into Israel and Jordan, accepted by the Jews, was at al-Husseini’s instigation rejected by the Arab League, which declared war to get rid of the Jews. The Arabs who stayed became citizens and, until the fall of Saddam, the only Arabs with a vote in free and fair democratic elections.
Coups against hereditary Arab rulers did not improve life for the masses: rulers like Gaddafi and Nasser were just as corrupt, keeping the masses in superstitious ignorance and blaming their woes on Israel and the West.
Egyptian President Anwar Sadat [whom Rashid’s “history” ignores], tried uplifting his people, drafting university students into the army which, in 1974, achieved an Arab military victory over Israel that satisfied Arab honour and allowed Sadat to make peace with Israel, which returned conquered Sinai territory. The two countries have maintained peace ever since. This departure from the al-Husseini discourse lead to Sadat’s assassination.
5314 just One
[ Sunday, December 13, 2009 | 6:07:59 PM ]
Facts for Rashid 2:
The land was serially colonised by Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece (Alexander the Great), Syria and Rome (63 -70 BP). Non biblical sources include Pliny, Josephus and Herodotus plus excavated legal and accounting records.
In 132 Israel revolted (again) against Rome and declared itself an independent state (its coins are in museums) - so much for your rewriting history with “no country called Israel before 1948”. Rome reconquered Israel 3 years later and, seeking to suppress indigenous names, renamed it Palestine, a derogatory term derived from the Philistines, people believed to be of Greek origin. When Rome collapsed the land fell under Byzantium.
Mecca’s imperialist colonisation included conquoring the area in 631; Jerusalem was taken by Caliph Umar (or Omar) in 638.
The Turkish Seljuk occupied it in 1071, the Crusaders in 1099, the Mamaluks in 1260 and the Ottamans in 1517. The British conquered it in 1917 and renamed it Palestine. It became a British mandate under the League of Nations after WW I.
Throughout all this period, Jews lived there and the Jews of the Diaspora pledged to return.
European nationalism following the Napoleonic emancipation affected some Arab intellectuals, who, seeing the progress being made in the west, called for an Arab renaissance and the modernisation of the Ottoman Empire. Different ideologies and prior golden age narratives grew, as did agitation against despostic hereditary rulers.
The land was serially colonised by Egypt, Babylonia, Persia, Greece (Alexander the Great), Syria and Rome (63 -70 BP). Non biblical sources include Pliny, Josephus and Herodotus plus excavated legal and accounting records.
In 132 Israel revolted (again) against Rome and declared itself an independent state (its coins are in museums) - so much for your rewriting history with “no country called Israel before 1948”. Rome reconquered Israel 3 years later and, seeking to suppress indigenous names, renamed it Palestine, a derogatory term derived from the Philistines, people believed to be of Greek origin. When Rome collapsed the land fell under Byzantium.
Mecca’s imperialist colonisation included conquoring the area in 631; Jerusalem was taken by Caliph Umar (or Omar) in 638.
The Turkish Seljuk occupied it in 1071, the Crusaders in 1099, the Mamaluks in 1260 and the Ottamans in 1517. The British conquered it in 1917 and renamed it Palestine. It became a British mandate under the League of Nations after WW I.
Throughout all this period, Jews lived there and the Jews of the Diaspora pledged to return.
European nationalism following the Napoleonic emancipation affected some Arab intellectuals, who, seeing the progress being made in the west, called for an Arab renaissance and the modernisation of the Ottoman Empire. Different ideologies and prior golden age narratives grew, as did agitation against despostic hereditary rulers.
5313 just One
[ Sunday, December 13, 2009 | 6:07:02 PM ]
Reply to Rashid 1:
Your brainwashed ignorance you choose to begin history in 1918. If you really want to “never turn a blind on facts presented before you” here are some facts you omit.
Israel has never been “Judenrein” with the return of diaspora Jews a constant of history, e.g. from Babylon (circa 540 BP), refugees from Mohamed’s sacking of Khaibar (7th century), from the Inquisition (circa 1518) and post-1948 Jewish refugees from Arab states.
Kibbutzim were anything but “informal settlements” The word means “collective” and these were highly organised, some would say over-regulated, communal farms.
Archaeology indicates that the earliest inhabitants of Israel were Neanderthals who were displaced by homo sapiens. No-one knows who inhabited Israel in antiquity except that they were Semitic – a linguistic/ethnic group that includes Akkadians, Eblaites, Arabs and Hebrews. The Egyptian king Merneptah’s Victory Stele [memorial] commemorates his victory over Israel (and other states – circa 1210BP). This earliest independent (non-biblical) reference to Israel discovered so far disproves your “no country called Israel before 1948”. According to the bible, there was an iron-age United Monarchy or Kingdom of Israel ruled by Saul, Ishbaal, David and Solomon.
The 701 BCE siege of Lachish during the conquest by Assyrian king Sennacherib, mentioned in the bible, is confirmed by Assyrian records and is illustrated in the friezes from Sennacherib’s Nineveh palace now in the British Museum.
Your brainwashed ignorance you choose to begin history in 1918. If you really want to “never turn a blind on facts presented before you” here are some facts you omit.
Israel has never been “Judenrein” with the return of diaspora Jews a constant of history, e.g. from Babylon (circa 540 BP), refugees from Mohamed’s sacking of Khaibar (7th century), from the Inquisition (circa 1518) and post-1948 Jewish refugees from Arab states.
Kibbutzim were anything but “informal settlements” The word means “collective” and these were highly organised, some would say over-regulated, communal farms.
Archaeology indicates that the earliest inhabitants of Israel were Neanderthals who were displaced by homo sapiens. No-one knows who inhabited Israel in antiquity except that they were Semitic – a linguistic/ethnic group that includes Akkadians, Eblaites, Arabs and Hebrews. The Egyptian king Merneptah’s Victory Stele [memorial] commemorates his victory over Israel (and other states – circa 1210BP). This earliest independent (non-biblical) reference to Israel discovered so far disproves your “no country called Israel before 1948”. According to the bible, there was an iron-age United Monarchy or Kingdom of Israel ruled by Saul, Ishbaal, David and Solomon.
The 701 BCE siege of Lachish during the conquest by Assyrian king Sennacherib, mentioned in the bible, is confirmed by Assyrian records and is illustrated in the friezes from Sennacherib’s Nineveh palace now in the British Museum.
5298 Lyndall Beddy
[ Friday, December 11, 2009 | 10:23:23 AM ]
Rachid
You still have not answered!
The Arabs(Muslims) got given 99% of the Ottoman Empire (which originally included Iran and Saudi Arabia as well as Mediterraean North Africa).
The Jews got given less than 1%. Why must they share and the Arabs won't - they even evicted the Jews in 1948 without compensation for their seized lands and property?
You still have not answered!
The Arabs(Muslims) got given 99% of the Ottoman Empire (which originally included Iran and Saudi Arabia as well as Mediterraean North Africa).
The Jews got given less than 1%. Why must they share and the Arabs won't - they even evicted the Jews in 1948 without compensation for their seized lands and property?
5249 Lyndall Beddy
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 4:44:32 PM ]
Rashid
In 1948 the UN created a number of safe havens for minorities - Israel for the Jews and Pakistan for the Muslims were among them. These were protections for religious minorities.
How does that compare to apartheid which was a RACIAL not RELIGIOUS suppression of a Majority?
The fundamentalist Muslims don't want ANY Jews in the Middle East at all - they want them dead, even although they have lived there for over 4000 years.
Where is the comparison with apartheid?
If Israel compares to anything it is to Oranje where a minority is fighting to preserve its culture ON THEIR OWN LAND!
In 1948 the UN created a number of safe havens for minorities - Israel for the Jews and Pakistan for the Muslims were among them. These were protections for religious minorities.
How does that compare to apartheid which was a RACIAL not RELIGIOUS suppression of a Majority?
The fundamentalist Muslims don't want ANY Jews in the Middle East at all - they want them dead, even although they have lived there for over 4000 years.
Where is the comparison with apartheid?
If Israel compares to anything it is to Oranje where a minority is fighting to preserve its culture ON THEIR OWN LAND!
5245 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 2:13:46 PM ]
Rashid,
Just for the record, where did you get the idea that "kibbutzes" were "informal settlements"?
Just for the record, where did you get the idea that "kibbutzes" were "informal settlements"?
5244 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 12:00:08 PM ]
Rashid.
You write; "you don't have time to entertain idiocy" Or perhaps you are intellectually out of your depth?
If you re-read your article, you will noticed that your "apartheid" assertion is merely an add-on at the end. You have failed to clearly state your case.
And why are you so reluctant to define apartheid? Once you have done so, you should carefully analyze whether it is an appropriate term for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
As Mike says, let's debate the issue. It is an important one and worthy of discussion.
You write; "you don't have time to entertain idiocy" Or perhaps you are intellectually out of your depth?
If you re-read your article, you will noticed that your "apartheid" assertion is merely an add-on at the end. You have failed to clearly state your case.
And why are you so reluctant to define apartheid? Once you have done so, you should carefully analyze whether it is an appropriate term for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
As Mike says, let's debate the issue. It is an important one and worthy of discussion.
5235 Mike Trapido
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 10:22:15 AM ]
Rashid - "If you wanna debate intellectually, be factual about it and never turn a blind on facts presented before you.
My age and my trip to Israel is irrelevant, so if you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer and I don't have time to entertain idiocy, especially from the senior citizens."
If you put out a highly controversial topic for debate then at least have the decency to put forward your argument.
Cut and paste is not the answer.
You have compared two systems.
Now define them.
My age and my trip to Israel is irrelevant, so if you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer and I don't have time to entertain idiocy, especially from the senior citizens."
If you put out a highly controversial topic for debate then at least have the decency to put forward your argument.
Cut and paste is not the answer.
You have compared two systems.
Now define them.
5233 Mike Trapido
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 9:58:30 AM ]
Bernie - could not agree more.
That's why I've asked for definitions.
It's like comparing a Volvo to an orange.
The systems are completely different.
Where one selected on race the other has absolutely nothing to do with it or any other method of separation as far as Israel goes.
I do think that this is a good opportunity for this debate once and for all.
To be constructive I want those definitions.
As you say if you don't like the way Israel treats Palestinians that is one issue. Branding ie Apartheid is garbage - there is nothing in common between the two.
That's why I've asked for definitions.
It's like comparing a Volvo to an orange.
The systems are completely different.
Where one selected on race the other has absolutely nothing to do with it or any other method of separation as far as Israel goes.
I do think that this is a good opportunity for this debate once and for all.
To be constructive I want those definitions.
As you say if you don't like the way Israel treats Palestinians that is one issue. Branding ie Apartheid is garbage - there is nothing in common between the two.
5232 Bernie Madoff
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 9:47:07 AM ]
Mike,
Whatever one thinks about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians,the apartheid analogy is inappropriate because it is inaccurate. It has been used as a an effective propaganda rallying call. In many ways, it has been used to garner the support of people like Rashid who don't have a clue about the complexity of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It is absolute nonsense to write as Rashid does... "if you support Israel you support apartheid." I support Israel but I think that apartheid was abhorrent and evil.
Whatever one thinks about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians,the apartheid analogy is inappropriate because it is inaccurate. It has been used as a an effective propaganda rallying call. In many ways, it has been used to garner the support of people like Rashid who don't have a clue about the complexity of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
It is absolute nonsense to write as Rashid does... "if you support Israel you support apartheid." I support Israel but I think that apartheid was abhorrent and evil.
5234 Rashid Kay
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 9:16:53 AM ]
If you wanna debate intellectually, be factual about it and never turn a blind on facts presented before you.
My age and my trip to Israel is irrelevant, so if you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer and I don't have time to entertain idiocy, especially from the senior citizens.
My age and my trip to Israel is irrelevant, so if you ask a stupid question you get a stupid answer and I don't have time to entertain idiocy, especially from the senior citizens.
5229 Paul Whelan
[ Thursday, December 03, 2009 | 7:58:50 AM ]
The question is not so much the accuracy of the narrative, which people will argue, but what use the narrative is, employed in this way.
Even if everyone agreed it as showing 'rightful ownership' of the 'country', where has that got us, how does that help one bit?
How does it get the world over the problem that the state of Israel exists today, is there?
The mistake is not to see that History does not 'prove' anything. It does not deliver 'verdicts' on the past and there is no 'conclusion' to be reached from it that is final and goes all one way.
Even if everyone agreed it as showing 'rightful ownership' of the 'country', where has that got us, how does that help one bit?
How does it get the world over the problem that the state of Israel exists today, is there?
The mistake is not to see that History does not 'prove' anything. It does not deliver 'verdicts' on the past and there is no 'conclusion' to be reached from it that is final and goes all one way.
5225 Mike Trapido
[ Wednesday, December 02, 2009 | 8:18:59 PM ]
Bernie I'm still waiting for those definitions.
5224 Bernie Madoff
[ Wednesday, December 02, 2009 | 5:58:54 PM ]
Rashid,
On what basis, did you choose to include the above "historical facts"? I ask because it is one of the most bizarre articles on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that I have ever read.
Please let your readers know precisely what sources you used to compile you "history" lesson.
Please also let us know whether you have ever visited Israel.
And how old were you when apartheid was dismantled in South Africa?
On what basis, did you choose to include the above "historical facts"? I ask because it is one of the most bizarre articles on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict that I have ever read.
Please let your readers know precisely what sources you used to compile you "history" lesson.
Please also let us know whether you have ever visited Israel.
And how old were you when apartheid was dismantled in South Africa?
5220 Mike Trapido
[ Wednesday, December 02, 2009 | 2:02:19 PM ]
"Apartheid in Israel today is worse than in the old South Africa. So if you support Israel you support apartheid."
Please define Apartheid
Then define the rights of ALL the citizens of Israel
Then using that as your starting point set out how Israel is Apartheid and "worse".
Please don't start until you have defined the two items above.
Please define Apartheid
Then define the rights of ALL the citizens of Israel
Then using that as your starting point set out how Israel is Apartheid and "worse".
Please don't start until you have defined the two items above.
5219 Lyndall Beddy
[ Wednesday, December 02, 2009 | 12:45:26 PM ]
Your facts are meaningless because you start from the wrong premise. You might as well give figures for how many Indian Hindus lived in Muslim Pakistan in 1948 and vice versa.
You have to start with the country that did exist - the Ottoman Emire of the Turks which ruled the whole Middle East for 800 years until the First World War. So your figures must start with how many Jews and how many Arabs lived in the whole Middle East before partition, and how many Hindu and how many Muslims lived in British India before partition.
Not only was there no Israel before 1848 - there was also no Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq. Only ONE prior state - the Ottoman Empire.
You have to start with the country that did exist - the Ottoman Emire of the Turks which ruled the whole Middle East for 800 years until the First World War. So your figures must start with how many Jews and how many Arabs lived in the whole Middle East before partition, and how many Hindu and how many Muslims lived in British India before partition.
Not only was there no Israel before 1848 - there was also no Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq. Only ONE prior state - the Ottoman Empire.
5218 Lyndall Beddy
[ Wednesday, December 02, 2009 | 12:30:45 PM ]
Your facts are meaningless because you start from the wrong premise. You might as well give figures for how many Indian Hindus lived in Muslim Pakistan in 1948 and vice versa.
You have to start with the country that did exist - the Ottoman Emire of the Turks which ruled the whole Middle East for 800 years until the First World War. So your figures must start with how many Jews and how many Arabs lived in the whole Middle East before partition, and how many Hindu and how many Muslims lived in British India before partition.
Not only was there no Israel before 1848 - there was also no Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq. Only ONE prior state - the Ottoman Empire.
You have to start with the country that did exist - the Ottoman Emire of the Turks which ruled the whole Middle East for 800 years until the First World War. So your figures must start with how many Jews and how many Arabs lived in the whole Middle East before partition, and how many Hindu and how many Muslims lived in British India before partition.
Not only was there no Israel before 1848 - there was also no Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and Iraq. Only ONE prior state - the Ottoman Empire.
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