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When Ronnie Kasrils met Geert Wilders

Friday, January 22, 2010 
Comments: 19
This story starts 110 years ago in Austria....

On 20 April 1889, Adolf Hitler was born.....

And in 1895, the anti-semitic politician, Karl Lueger, became Mayor of Vienna. Adolf was just 6 yrs old, too young of course, to be aware of Lueger's existence.

However, Theodor Herzl (the founder of modern political Zionism) was deeply worried by Lueger's election. This seemingly insignificant election, certainly influenced Herzl's ideas, which were carefully formulated in his publication "Der Judenstaat". Herzl argued that the only path for Jewish salvation, in particular with regard to the re-emergence of anti-semitism, was for the creation of a Jewish state...Israel.

And as the twentieth century progressed, so did Zionism and Nazism. However, the creation of Israel in 1948 came too late for the six million European Jews who were murdered by Hitler's Nazis during the Second World War.

More recently, as the conflict in the Middle East has intensified, it has become quite popular to argue that Israel is some sort of Nazi state. The logic goes... Israel is worse than apartheid South Africa and, as a result, it is quite reasonable to compare her treatment of the Palestinians, to the Nazi's extermination of the Jews. In South Africa, moreover, it is quite acceptable to do so. Ronnie Kasrils ( a Jewish ex Minister of Intelligence) even asked The SAHRC to rule on the matter, and Karthy Govender produced a finding stating that Kasrils' use of the Nazi/ Israeli analogy was not hate speech and did not break South African constitutional law in respect of freedom of expression. So in South Africa, as well as in Israel and the rest of the world, you can spout the analogy without fear of prosecution.

The Israeli/Nazi analogy is particularly popular with Israel's enemies in The Middle East and beyond. President Ahmadinejad of Iran has even stated that Israel is so evil that she should be wiped off the face of the map, Obviously the analogy is frequently used to legitimize Israel's destruction.

At the moment Geert Wilders, the leader of the Freedom Party In Holland, is facing a criminal prosecution in Amsterdam for arguing that Islam is comparable to Nazism. He has called the Koran "the Islamic Mein Kampf" and has also called Islam "fascist". Wilders is being prosecuted on the basis that such statements are hate speech and affect the dignity of Muslims.

One should bear in mind, however, that although the South African constitution also protects "the dignity" of its citizens, one is still able to use the Israeli/Nazi analogy. Clearly the "dignity" of some South African Jews, who support Israel and survived the holocaust, is not as important as the right to freedom of expression.

Daniel Pipes, who frequently publishes articles supporting Israel writes: "Although I disagree with Wilders about Islam (I respect the religion but fight Islamists with all I have), we stand shoulder-to-shoulder against this lawsuit. I reject the criminalization of political differences and the attempted thwarting of a political movement through the courts."

Clare Lopez on a website entitled "Defend Geert Wilders" also writes: " When Dutch parliamentarian Geert Wilders goes on trial this week in the Netherlands, he will stand alone before a Dutch court. But make no mistake: it is the very principle of free speech which hangs in the balance there. Brought up on charges of inciting hatred, Wilders is one of the few leaders anywhere in the Western world who dares to denounce a supremacist Islamic doctrine that commands its faithful to jihad and terror against non-believers. As he showed so honestly in his courageous film, ‘Fitna,’ a system of pluralist, tolerant, liberal democracy is fundamentally incompatible with literal, textual Islam as presented on the pages of the Qur’an."

Wilders' lawyers will inevitably refer to radical Islamic calls for the extermination of Jews and Israelis, and as a result, will argue that his use of the Nazi analogy is quite acceptable.

So.. should Wilders be prosecuted?

And was it right to give Kasrils the green light?



http://www.internationalfreepresssociety.org/2010/01/geert-wilders-delivers-in-opening-statement-for-his-freedom/

Wilders: "Mister Speaker, judges of the court,

I would like to make use of my right to speak for a few minutes.

Freedom is the most precious of all our attainments and the most vulnerable. People have devoted their lives to it and given their lives for it. Our freedom in this country is the outcome of centuries. It is the consequence of a history that knows no equal and has brought us to where we are now.

I believe with all my heart and soul that the freedom in the Netherlands is threatened. That what our heritage is, what generations could only dream about, that this freedom is no longer a given, no longer self-evident.

I devote my life to the defence of our freedom. I know what the risks are and I pay a price for it every day. I do not complain about it; it is my own decision. I see that as my duty and it is why I am standing here.

I know that the words I use are sometimes harsh, but they are never rash. It is not my intention to spare the ideology of conquest and destruction, but I am not any more out to offend people. I have nothing against Muslims. I have a problem with Islam and the Islamization of our country because Islam is at odds with freedom.

Future generations will wonder to themselves how we in 2010, in this place, in this room, earned our most precious attainment. Whether there is freedom in this debate for both parties and thus also for the critics of Islam, or that only one side of the discussion may be heard in the Netherlands? Whether freedom of speech in the Netherlands applies to everyone or only to a few? The answer to this is at once the answer to the question whether freedom still has a home in this country.

Freedom was never the property of a small group, but was always the heritage of us all. We are all blessed by it.

Lady Justice wears a blindfold, but she has splendid hearing. I hope that she hears the following sentences, loud and clear:

It is not only a right, but also the duty of free people to speak against every ideology that threatens freedom. Thomas Jefferson, the third President of the United States was right: The price of freedom is eternal vigilance.

I hope that the freedom of speech shall triumph in this trial.

In conclusion, Mister Speaker, judges of the court.

This trial is obviously about the freedom of speech. But this trial is also about the process of establishing the truth. Are the statements that I have made and the comparisons that I have taken, as cited in the summons, true? If something is true then can it still be punishable? This is why I urge you to not only submit to my request to hear witnesses and experts on the subject of freedom of speech. But I ask you explicitly to honour my request to hear witnesses and experts on the subject of Islam. I refer not only to Mister Jansen and Mister Admiraal, but also to the witness/experts from Israel, the United States, and the United Kingdom. Without these witnesses, I cannot defend myself properly and, in my opinion, this would not be an fair trial."


RADIO FREE NETHERLANDS
Geert Wilders did not pull any punches in a courtroom reaction during the preliminary hearing of his trial on charges of inciting hatred. On the first day of the trial in a courtroom in Amsterdam, a few hundred people protested quietly outside the building, while the lawyers inside presented their plans.
Between two and three hundred people turned up to support Freedom Party (PVV) leader Geert Wilders. Police were out in force, but had little to keep them occupied.
Some even seemed to surprise themselves when they shouted P-V-V as Geert Wilders' colleague parliamentarians entered the courtroom (PVV are the Dutch initials for the Freedom Party). For the three hours that followed, the atmosphere was conversational and collegial. This is in stark contrast to the tone Mr Wilders set in the courtroom at the end of the day.
Speaking to the three judges of the Amsterdam District Court, Mr Wilders gave a rousing oratory on the defence of liberty. He said he has devoted his life to protecting freedom, and is paying the price for it every day. Quoting the third American president Thomas Jefferson, Wilders said eternal vigilance is the price of liberty.
Mr Wilders' oration was particularly striking in that it followed a day of legalistic to and fro among his defence lawyer, the two public prosecutors, and the senior judge. The preliminary hearing gives the court the chance to learn how the two sides plan to conduct their cases. The trial will start in earnest on an as-yet to be determined date.
The Freedom Party leader closed his talk with an appeal to the court to allow all seventeen witnesses he would like to call to testify. The public prosecutor had objected to the number, perhaps fearing a months-long seminar on anti-Islamic sentiments.
But Wilders responded by telling the judges: allow all my witnesses, or there can be no question of a fair trial.
This presents the three judges with a challenge. Jan Moors, the senior judge of the three judge panel, indicated in his tone and body language that he wants to be as impartial as possible.
Mr Wilders and his followers have said this trial is politically motivated. There is no evidence to show that this is the case, but the very fact that a popular politician is facing charges politicises the process.
If that is not enough, the judges on the Amsterdam District Court have another reason for being careful. It was three of their colleagues at the district court who wrote the decision last year to bring charges against Mr Wilders. Some who read that decision say those three judges had already found Mr Wilders to be guilty.
Judge Moors closed the hearing by announcing the court would need two weeks to decide on how the trial will proceed. Two weeks for Geert Wilders' challenge to the judges to echo around the country.


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5616 Bernie Madoff  [ Sunday, January 24, 2010 | 9:57:46 AM ]
As far as I am aware, The BBC news website has decided not to report on the Wilders trail. There is no mention of his opening statement to the court on freedom. I have done numerous google searches, as well as BBC searches, and can find nothing.

I think that it worth reflecting on the possible reasons for The BBC's decision.

Surely the Wilders trail raises profound issues and should be reported?

I have referred to the issue in the RS Open Forum.



5606 Ben Epstein  [ Saturday, January 23, 2010 | 12:05:34 PM ]
THE DEADLY GAME OF POLITICS: WINSTON CHURCHILL
"international Jews,” Churchill wrote: “The adherents of this sinister confederacy are mostly men reared up among the unhappy populations of countries where Jews are persecuted on account of their race. Most, if not all, of them have forsaken the faith of their forefathers, and divorced from their minds all spiritual hopes of the next world. This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxemburg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States), this world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It played … a definitely recognizable part in the tragedy of the French Revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the Nineteenth Century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.” (Winston Churchill, “Zionism Versus Bolshevism” Illustrated Sunday Herald February 8, 1920)


"I could not help being charmed like so many other people who have been, by Signor Mussolini’s gentle and simple bearing and by his calm, detached poise in spite of so many burdens and dangers. Secondly, anyone could see that he thought of nothing but the lasting good of the Italian people … If I had been an Italian I am sure that I should have been whole-heartedly with you from the start to finish in your triumphant struggle against the bestial appetite and passions of Leninism. I will, however, say a word on an international aspect of fascism. Externally your movement has rendered a service to the whole world. The great fear which has always beset every democratic leader or a working-class leader has been that of being undermined or overbid by something more extreme than he. Italy has shown that there is a way of fighting the subversive forces which can rally the masses of the people, properly led, to value and wish to defend the honour and stability of civilized society."...... These are the words of Winston Churchill uttered 20 January 1927.( Robert Black, Stalinism in Britain, New Park Publications, London 1970 )
5604 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 9:30:24 PM ]
Mike,
This is an amazing co-incidence:

"In 1630, Galileo returned to Rome to apply for a license to print the "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems", published in Florence in 1632. In October of that year, however, he was ordered to appear before the Holy Office in Rome.
Following a papal trial in which he was found vehemently suspect of heresy, Galileo was placed under house arrest and his movements restricted by the Pope."

Now the court csae against Wilders could best be described as the "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems"!
It is totally incredible.

What evidenced to show that history repeats itself! Nothing ever changes. We always go back to Stage 1.
5603 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 9:00:20 PM ]
Mike,
I will try and check it out.
Of course, many year ago I read Hannah Arendt's "Eichmann in Jerusalem". She coined the phrase "the banality of evil". I must admit that I was highly immpresed by Ms Arendt. And she also wrote a classic entitled "totalitarianism" in which she compared Hitler and Stalin's regimes. I think I knew the book by heart. But that is along time ago!

I wonder what Ms Arendt would make of the current shenanigans. It is at a times like this when you really need thinkers of her calibre. To get us out of the intellectual PC shit.

I suppose somebody will write a book about Wilders' trial.
5602 Mike Trapido  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 6:37:45 PM ]
If you want to read up on a trial in Jerusalem (Eichman) that also had great impact try and get hold of "Justice in Jerusalem".

Outstanding.
5601 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 6:35:02 PM ]
Mike,
Of course, the last trial of such importance was the Dreyfus trial. It greatly influenced Harzl's thinking with regard to a Jewish state.
5600 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 6:13:22 PM ]
Mike,
I am not sure whether I can recall a more important trial in The West. One might have to go back to Galileo's trial by the church.
5599 Mike Trapido  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 5:04:27 PM ]
To say that this is going to be a highly emotional trial is the understatement of the year.

Look at the issues at stake :

1.Freedom of Speech
2 Christianity versus Islam

Normally you would have to throw a petrol bomb into a court to get the same effect.
5598 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 4:53:00 PM ]
" But what does it mean to criminalize a man’s speech because it criticizes another man’s religion or beliefs? In the West, freedom of speech is highly prized because a man’s participation in representative government necessitates a willingness to permit public criticism.
Granted, no nation should grant speech no limits. Should we allow political advocacy the ground to advocate murder and the violent destruction of national existence? Even in the U.S. we circumscribe such speech when it is likely to incite imminent violence. But the Dutch have moved beyond incitement and have explicitly criminalized truthful public critique of another’s violent religion or faith. Again, we are forced to ask, why?
To understand the rationale for such laws, we need not travel far. Europeans brought the truth of the Enlightenment to the West. This new truth is not merely close at hand, it is the hand. Indeed, it is the whole of a man’s existence.
The truth of the Enlightenment was and continues to be that there is no truth. Western men live the certainty of this new absolutism because we accept the reduction of man to the mathematical physics of science. To gain the certainty that men are bound by the material counting of scientific symbols is to know that all else is belief or uncertain opinion. What Western men at one time understood as the truth of existence is now only an absolutely uncertain belief. If political man has no access to truth except the truth that no truth exists, there can be no truthful criticism....

Wilders’ crime is not his speech. It is his commitment to the truth of existence of a Dutch people and nation grounded in Christianity. That truth violates the principles of the Enlightenment now engraved in the tablets of a Western world where the only truth permitted men in the public sphere is a multicultural pluralism devoid of any truthful content but that there is no truthful content.
To that breach of peace, Wilders is guilty. To be sure, his legal team will defend him in the context of the Enlightenment’s new truth. They will argue a technical compliance with the new hate crimes by claiming that he criticized a scripture not Muslims. They will argue that he called for no violent acts or discrimination only peaceful and lawful responses to a violent threat. This defense will echo meaninglessly within the judicial chambers. Wilders will be found guilty as charged and, given the law as written, he is guilty." David Yerushalmi
5597 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 4:23:51 PM ]
Mike, I attach what Pipes has written in full:

Who is the most important European alive today? I nominate the Dutch politician Geert Wilders. I do so because he is best placed to deal with the Islamic challenge facing the continent. He has the potential to emerge as a world-historical figure.
The Islamic challenge consists of two components: on the one hand, an indigenous population’s withering Christian faith, inadequate birthrate, and cultural diffidence, and on the other an influx of devout, prolific, and culturally assertive Muslim immigrants. This fast-moving situation raises questions about Europe retaining its historic civilization; it become a majority-Muslim continent living under Islamic law (the Shari‘a).
Wilders, 46, founder and head of the Party for Freedom (PVV), is the unrivaled leader of those Europeans who wish to retain their historic identity. That’s because he and the PVV differ from most of Europe’s other nationalist, anti-immigrant parties.
The PVV is politically mainstream, with its roots lying not in neo-Fascism, nativism, conspiricism, antisemitism, or other forms of extremism, but in libertarianism and mainstream conservatism. (Wilders publicly emulates Ronald Reagan.) In addition, Wilders is a charismatic, savvy, principled, and outspoken leader who has rapidly become the most dynamic political force in the Netherlands. Finally, the PVV benefits from the fact that, uniquely in Europe, the Dutch are receptive to a non-nativist rejection of Islam. It has done well electorally; polls now generally show the PVV winning a plurality of votes and becoming the country’s largest party. Thus, Were Wilders to become prime minister, he could fulfill a leadership role for all Europe.
But he faces daunting challenges, including his opponents’ dirty tactics. Most notably, they have finally, after 2½ years of preliminary skirmishes, succeeded in dragging him to court on charges of hate speech and incitement to hatred.
Although I disagree with Wilders about Islam (I respect the religion but fight Islamists with all I have), we stand shoulder-to-shoulder against this lawsuit. I reject the criminalization of political differences and the attempted thwarting of a political movement through the courts. Accordingly, the Middle East Forum’s Legal Project has worked on Wilders’ behalf, raising substantial funds for his defense and helping in other ways.
Wilders today represents all those Westerners who cherish their civilization. The outcome of his trial has implications for us all.

Mr. Pipes (www.DanielPipes.org) is director of the Middle East Forum and Taube distinguished visiting fellow at the Hoover Institution of Stanford University.
5596 Mike Trapido  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 4:21:18 PM ]
After last nights attack on the American banks by Obama with the massive fall out being felt on the World Stock Markets expect another huge swing to the right.

The lesson of Massachusetts apparently went straight over the Dems heads.

In the UK and Holland the shift is definitely towards the right and what you are saying is not far-fetched.
5595 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 4:15:46 PM ]
Mike,
If they imprison Wilders he might, one day, become the President of the European Union. And in the future, it is possible that such a position, will hold considerable power.

It is worth reflecting on the fact that about 75% of Dutch Jewry were murdered in the holocaust.

5594 Mike Trapido  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 3:07:34 PM ]
Bernie if found guilty he faces jail.

I agree with Pipes this lawsuit is ridiculous.
5592 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 1:36:24 PM ]
Mike,
Let's assume that Wilders is found guilty. And let's assume that he continues to make the Nazi/Islam analogy.
What is the Dutch court going to do? Is it going to order Wilders' arrest? Bear in mind that he is an MP and leads a party with quite a lot of support.
As I wrote in a previous comment, this prosecution is counter-productive.
5591 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 1:26:26 PM ]
The 17-minute film Fitna, which means strife in Arabic, was called “offensively anti-Islamic” by Ban Ki Moon, the UN Secretary-General, after its release on the internet last March. Its screening prompted protests in Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia and Afghanistan.

No date has been set for the trial of Mr Wilders, nor are the precise charges yet determined. However, it is certain to inflame tensions again in the Netherlands, where the Government has begun to reverse the open immigration policies that led to large numbers of arrivals from Morocco and Turkey in the 1980s and 1990s.

While judges in the Netherlands generally are loathe to become involved in public debate, the court said that it was making an exception in this case.

“The court considers this so insulting for Muslims that it is in the public interest to prosecute Wilders,” a summary of the decision said. “By attacking the symbols of the Muslim religion, he also insulted Muslim believers. In a democratic system, hate speech is considered to be so serious that it is in the general interest to draw a clear line.”

Mr Wilders said: “It is a black day and an attack on the freedom of speech in the Netherlands. I am convinced that it can only lead to an acquittal.” In a statement on his website he added: “Participation in the public debate has become a dangerous activity. If you give your opinion, you risk being prosecuted. Who will stand up for our culture if I am silenced?”
5590 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 1:07:02 PM ]
Mike,
Whatever one thinks about Wilders, his prosecution will only lead to more votes. It is counter-productive.
5589 Mike Trapido  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 12:29:27 PM ]
Not if it's a case of selective morality.
5588 Bernie Madoff  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 12:19:30 PM ]
Mike,
I have my doubts about whether Kasrils will respond. I think that he is too busy campaignong for Israel's destruction.
My guess is that he would say that Wilders should be prosecuted. Call it my convict's intuition.

Btw, do you think that Wilders should be prosecuted?
5587 Mike Trapido  [ Friday, January 22, 2010 | 12:10:27 PM ]
Bernie you certainly have set the cat among the pigeons.

Perhaps Kasrils will even pop in and give us some of his "pearls" of wisdom.